[Ruth’s post reflects her own opinions and not the opinions of the entire FanLit staff. We love Ruth, so we sometimes let her rant here.]
Justin, I love you like a brother, you know that right? That said, your claim that “I may have agreed with her 15 years ago, but I think the gender bias in epic fantasy has balanced out pretty evenly” in regards to N.K. Jemisin‘s post about the feminization of epic fantasy struck me a bit as “the lady doth protest too much.”
Now, I don’t read much epic fantasy, but that is because of the problem that you said doesn’t exist anymore. Long doorstopper bricks of a novel, in my experience, tend to feature manly men and the women who are (contractually obligated) to love them.
My completely non-scientific sample of epic fantasy includes the following male-centric works:
- J.R.R. Tolkien — Not many women folk of any race running around in those, other than as objects of inspiration or desire. He does get bonus points for Eowyn, though.
- Piers Anthony — I stopped reading him because of all the suicidal teenage girls.
- Patrick Rothfuss — Brilliant author. Main female character is a professional.
- C.S. Lewis — Yes, Lucy and Susan are there, but kept at a distance from the main action. And then Susan grows up and commits the sin of *gasp* liking boys so she gets kicked out of fantasy land.
- George R. R. Martin — Lots of man violence and rape.
- Robert Jordan — ’nuff said.
- Terry Brooks — I admit to not having read these.
- Stephen R. Donaldson — Establishes manliness through raping a woman.
- David Farland — I DNFed these in my pre-FanLit days.
- Terry Goodkind — *gag* smashing babies — not a particularly feminine attribute.
- Robin Hobb — Another fantastic author. Mostly male leads.
- Ursula K. Leguin — Earthsea — I’m specifying a series here, because LeGuin does amazing work with gender in other books, but as an example of male-centered epic fantasy, I have to include this.
- Patricia McKillip — The Riddlemaster of Hed.
- L.E. Modesitt‘s — The Saga of Recluce.
- Janny Wurts — The Wars of Light and Shadow.
Now, you’ll notice that I am not saying that this is a problem with male authors, because there are several females on my list. I love some of these books, but I think they all feature male protagonists. At least the ones I’ve read.
So, my questions this week are multiple: Are there epic fantasy series out there featuring women that I am just missing? Or is there something about the epic fantasy sub-genre that requires male protagonists? Epic fantasy is usually about saving the world, the battle between which is more powerful — good or evil — and which will come out victorious. Combined with the typical trappings of some sort of feudal monarchy — medieval European setting, it’s not surprising to see that so few authors manage to escape standard constructions of power = male. But that is what we get. In the few epic fantasies featuring women, they are basically men without penises in all but fact — muscular, aggressive, large — that they don’t get beyond the gender divide in any meaningful way. C’mon, Justin, I want to believe you that all is happy in fantasy land, but I’m discovering a dearth of evidence that supports your claim. Maybe our dear readers can help you out.
Join in what I am sure will be a respectful and courteous comments section and we’ll enter you in a drawing to win a book from our stacks!
Trudi Canavan has written amazing fantasy books with main female characters….”the Magicians Guild” being one of them. But maybe that’s the point, a woman wrote about a strong female character.
Look at YA or urban fantasy novels…they’re mostly written by women for women.
Maybe its more natural to write from the same gender point of view?
I sort of disagree on your George R.R. Martin point.
-Catelyn was a strong, feminine character and constantly conflicted between her duties as queen, her commitment as a wife, and her commitment to honor and “rules” of the realm.
-Daenerys is, well, awesome and is arguably the the most important character of the series to this point.
-And of course Cersei, Arya, Sansa, Brienne…I’d argue Song of Ice and Fire is one of the most diverse books in terms of female characters taking hold of their destinies (regardless of the excessive rape scenes).
But I really do understand what you’re saying. Maybe we should consider Occam’s Razor in this case…the simplest explanation may be that there are just more male epic-fantasy readers than female.
I don’t disagree with the premise, but there are certainly some out here. A few more with major female leads and protagonists:
* Elizabeth Haydon’s Symphony of Ages epic is focused primarily on a female lead (Rhapsody)
* You mention Robin Hobb…her Liveship Trader’s trilogy had a female lead, not a male lead.
* Sara Douglass’ Wayfarer Redemption epic has female leads in some of the books, although in the long run I think they may get swamped out by the male characters.
* The Hendees’ Noble Dead books all have major female leads (they switch to a different primary character in the second set, but still female)
* Moira Moore’s Hero series is perhaps not epic fantasy, but has a female protagonist.
* Brandon Sanderson’s Mistborn trilogy has a female protagonist. It’s only one book in so far, so it’s hard to know how it will pan out, but about half of the primary characters in The Way of Kings are women
* Janny Wurts older Empire Trilogy (co-written with Feist) is focused on a female character
I believe the earlier Terry Brooks are very male-centric, but I think female characters may become much more central in later books (I’ve only read a scattering of these so am uncertain).
Of course, I could come up with a few more counter-examples as well. And then, as already mentioned, urban fantasy is glutted with female protagonists. Some of these approach epic proportions, although they are quite different in style from the “classic” epic fantasy we seem to be discussing.
While I agree that Justin may be wrong, I don’t think the evidence (the authors listed above), outside of Pat Rothfuss, really qualify as being within the last “15 years”. Most of those authors started their “groundbreaking” series’ longer than 15 years ago and even though some pay still be continuing on, I don’t think you can count any furthering of that series that started outside of the range.
In saying this, I don’t really have any good examples of pro-feminist novels in the last 15 years either. :) Maybe Erikson with his Malazan Book of the Fallen series. There are plenty of women protagonists in there, but then again, they act just like the men.
What about The Other Lands by David Durham, The Warded Man by Peter Brett and The Crossroads books by Kate Elliott? All have great female characters.
Hannah – I tried the prequel to that series and it seemed overly preachy to me. Is that a problem with The Magicians Guild?
Andrew – Good point on the GRRM. But, why does the gender of the reader determine what they will read? I read a lot of books with male leads. Why would males read books with female leads?
TINTMYLF – I always thought of Haydon as more romantic fantasy than epic, though there is definitely an epic story going on. I just thought the romance overwhelmed the fantasy. I’ll have to try some of the other ones you recommend. Douglass has been on my TBR pile for a while.
Seak – Yeah, that is a problem with my sample. I’ve stopped reading most epic fantasy because the female characters are so unrealistic. Why do so many men have a problem writing believable females, when females make – what seem to me – believable male characters on a regular basis?
Jazz, I’ll have to look those up.
How about Guy Gavriel Kay? Lions of Al-Rassan has a female lead who is equally strong as the male leads (I actually think she’s the dominant character, personally).
Tigana has a plethora of female characters, Dianora being one of the most complex in the book.
His recent book, Under Heaven has two phenomenal female characters, though the focal character is, admittedly, male.
Michelle West has a series that seem to focus on female leads.(they’re on my TBR mountain, though, so I can’t say for certain)
She also has her Elantra Chronicles as Michelle Sagara that are a neat hybrid of urban fantasy and epic fantasy. The series follows one, female protagonist.
Maria V. Snyder’s Study Series (which was rereleased as a YA, but not written as one) features a female MC.
I stopped reading epic fantasy a while back for the same reasons you mention. It made me sad because I love such Fantasy, but I got tired of female characters who didn’t really matter, died, or were there for sex. Sigh. I do think there’s a new set of Fantasy authors who do much better by their female characters:
Brian Sanderson’s Mistborn Trilogy features a female heroine. I’ve read the first installment of his new series and found it, alas, very male centered. His standalone title, Elantris, also features a wonderfully strong heroine.
Jim Butcher’s Codex Alera series, while centered around a male protagonist, features several very strong female characters.
Brent Week’s Assassin series handled its female characters really well, despite the male hero dominance. His new series is more male-dominated, but again, the women play more than token roles.
Now, I may be a little biased on this one, but I’ve found that not only does Mercedes Lackey tend to do a good job of balancing gender issues, but also of balancing sexuality issues and presentation in her Velgarth novels. A good number of protagonists are kick-ass females, and when it comes to world-in-peril stuff, the people who save the day are a good mix of male and female.
Sadly, it seems that most female fantasy writers are leaning toward urban fantasy and paranormal romance these days. There are times when I’d really love to see some male-written urban fantasy. Of course, if it was written in the same way that most female-written urban fantasy is, but with the genders switched, then the outcry against sexism would be deafening. Funny how it’s not okay for males to objectify females but perfectly fine for females to objectify males… -_-
Whilst I mostly agree with you (and the couple of Terry Brooks books I have read featured women as some kind of rare gem, never quite being part of the action.. *facepalm*), I have to say I am impressed by Mistborn so far! The heroine is perfect, because she’s so imperfect. I’m actually in love. I think, though, that 9 times out of 10, the lack of female representation is apt for the settings these novels are using.
Ria, I totally agree with you about Lackey. I wasn’t sure whether or not to list her here because I know some people consider her stuff YA. But that is one of the things I love about her work – gender doesn’t seem to matter. By The Sword is one of my favorite comfort reads.
I felt that Justin missed part of Jemisin’s point, “Still, I think I’m seeing a pattern here — one that suggests epic fantasy itself, as a genre, resists the inclusion of any elements (or authors) it deems “too feminine”. ”
It is not simply the existence or lack thereof of strong female characters in epic fantasy but how the readers and critics respond to the behavior of those female characters. Her specific point … explicit sex in epic fantasies as told from the female perspective is criticized to a greater extent than similarly explicit sex told from the male perspective. To me the question is not so much whether there are strong female characters in epic fantasy but are those characters allowed to behave in stereotypically feminine ways and still be the heroine? For example, are they allowed to be nurturing and tough at the same time without being criticized for one or the other characteristic (if not both)? Can they get pregnant while in the middle of the fantasy, give birth, and care for their child while the save the world without being condemned (for having allowing themselves to get pregnant, for having the child, for putting the child at risk, for including icky stuff like pregnancy and the realities in the lives of people who might need to save the world)?
I don’t know the answer but my guess is not.
When I saw GRRM in your list, I immeditaly was trying to re-call the names of great female characters in ASoIaF but Andrew beat me to it.
I have to add one of my favorites authors. J. V. Jones has some very strong female leads in all her books.
@Ruth- In responce to your question “Why would males read books with female leads?”
Speaking for myself, I don’t set-out to read books with female leads and to be honest, since I’m a dude, I kinda prefer male leads, a little bit anyway. Just as I imagine most women would prefer a female lead. But I don’t think I put all that much weight in the character genders when I choose a book.
What I do avoid like the plague though is; a book that makes me feel like it has a female lead just for the sake of having a female lead, if that makes sense. The last thing I want when I pick-up a fantasy book, is to get some polically correct message preached at me. I get enough of that at work and everywhere else.
But, why does the gender of the reader determine what they will read? I read a lot of books with male leads. Why would males read books with female leads?
I don’t know why, but I’ve often seen it accepted as a given that boys are less likely to choose to read books about girls than vice versa.
I’m not sure if any of the strong-female-characters who spring to mind are epic enough to count, but author for the anti-example pile is R. Scott Bakker. I only read the first book in his series, because I found his handling of female characters to be truly appalling. I’m not one to usually get up in arms over such things, so if it’s blatant enough to get me riled… it’s pretty blatant.
This conversation comes at a timely moment for me. :) I was *just* thinking thing morning about the “king’s bastard” archetype in fantasy, and reflecting on how they’re always *boys*. I really want to know what a fantasy would look like told from the POV of a king’s illegitimate *daughter*… what her lot in life would be.
Glenda Larke writes epic fantasy with strong female leads and recently blogged about it http://maryvictoria.net/?p=716. She talks about a main female character in her latest book who’s not a warrior, pregnant, breaks free of captivity and gives birth in the middle of a battle and of all the female characters in that novel, this one is the most memorable.
I tend to read more urban fantasy these days than fantasy and while I am still enjoying the kick-arse ladies of the genre, I do go out of my way to find books with male leads, just for a bit of variety. Butcher, Kadrey, Carey and del Franco have become precious to me for this fact.
Would Rosemary Kirstein’s the Steerswoman series qualify as epic fantasy?
I agree with Ruth for the most part. There is no gender-equilibrium in epic fantasy at all! Obviously some of you pointed out that there are strong female characters in epic fantasy. Since ASOIAF has been mentioned a couple of times, I’ll take that as example. But I still have to agree with Ruth. She pointed out, that strong female characters have more male characteristics than female. Brienne in her appearance, Arya and Daenerys in their revenge and blood lust, Catelyn only got interesting when she started to kick some ass, Asha, who was basically raised as a boy…
Having said that, I don’t really want to read about strong feminine characters that, that are “girly” girls. They are either boring and annoying (Sansa) or completely morally corrupted (Cersei).
I think it is immensely hard to write a female character that is strong without coming across as either manly or a total bitch (pardon my language).
I thought about this long and hard and the ONLY (!!!) writer that I can think of who pulls it off is Jacqueline Carey with Phedre. She’s basically the only female character in epic fantasy that I know of, who is totally in sync with her femininity and has no problem letting the guys do the handiwork while still holding the reins without being a conniving witch.
I agree with those of you who mentioned GGK and Jacqueline Carey as writing great female leads.
I actually prefer to read male heroes written by men, I think because I just like men and I want to read a man’s version of a man. But I’m very much aware of the female characters and I get mad when they’re all some version of sexy, bitchy, or motherly.
I think part of the problem is that even when we say we’re feminists (I’m certainly a feminist), we still have certain expectations about how women should and should not behave. So, as drmeow points out about Jemisin’s post, we don’t expect our female characters to describe explicit sex scenes.
And then with Phedre, you run into the “professional” issue you mentioned with Rothfuss. ;) But you’re right, Franziska, she’s one of the best girly-girl fantasy heroines out there. She knows what her own strengths and weaknesses are, and uses her strengths (which include beauty, brains, and impeccable manners in addition to the sex stuff) while delegating fighting to people who are better at it. (Deadly with a hairpin, though.)
Juliet Marillier also writes good girly heroines. They tend to be skilled in the creative arts.
Jen, there is a queen‘s illegitimate daughter in C.E. Murphy’s Inheritor’s Cycle. I actually found her terribly unlikable and quit the series because of her, but there are a wide range of opinions on Belinda!
Not precisely a fantasy book, though it has a small magical element: The Light Bearer by Donna Gillespie. There’s a sequel now, too. She’s a woman of the ancient Germanic tribes who ends up becoming a gladiator. Oh, and she’s a priestess, and she also has a kid.
@DrMeow: I totally agree that romantic/sexual elements tend to be more criticized if they are written by a woman. A guy puts sex in a fantasy book and it’s a fantasy book with sex in it. A lady does the same, and it gets slammed as a romance novel by some fans.
A point that I think goes along with this thread is that generally men and women are going to read different stories anyway. Just look at the movies. Every time I see a movie advertised with a bunch of action, I get all hyped, regardless of the genre, but when the next romantic comedy or mother/daughter coming-of-age, or just any movie about life and relationships in general is advertised, and my wife says, “I’d like to see that.”, I lie and say “Yeah, that looks like a good one, Honey”, while I’m secretly praying, “Oh Lord, please don’t make me sit through that.” :)
Something that I find puzzling though; if the tables were turned and there were more strong female lead characters in fantasy, I don’t think the number of men that would read it then would be as high as there are women reading fantasy now. Why is that?
Kelly, I loved The Light Bearer!
I was just thinking – what about Jo Graham and her female characters in The Black Ships and The Hands of Isis. That’s definitely some epic fantasy with female leads, and a wide variety of strong independent women who are still feminine.
Greg, it’s because women are used to being marginalized in society, and for a long time the survival of women depended on their ability to identify with and work within male values and power structures, so they are more capable of doing so in fiction as well. Men have never had to identify with women to survive, so they have not developed those skills.
Good point, Ruth–and I loved those books, so I don’t know why I didn’t think of them! The heroine of Black Ships is a priestess and the heroine of Hand of Isis is sort of…Cleopatra’s event planner. :D Both are feminine, and strong without being fighters. (And they both eventually have kids, too.)
@Greg: Here’s the funny thing. I love “girly” fantasy books with lots of relationships and stuff–but I don’t usually want to read relationship stuff if there’s nothing else going on. I like fantasy-with-romance, and historical-fiction-with-romance, but I don’t usually like straight-up chick lit, for example, and I have pretty much no interest in those “uplifting” books about family tragedy that always end up in everybody’s book club.
@Ruth- WOW!!!! I’m sure you are right, and what proves it, is that reason never, even remotely, crossed my mind.
But I still have no desire to see chick flicks. LOL
Must mention Robin McKinley as a novelist showing women who are strong in many ways.
As a side-note, I’m never comfortable when the depiction of a woman in a novel is criticised because “it’s a woman acting like a man”? What is acting like a man? Being brave? Fighting for what’s important? Honing physical skills to survive? Placing honour above self-interest? Dealing with harsh environments without filing their nails?
While I do think that epic fantasy female leads are harder to come by, they are definitely out there.
Someone above mentioned Elizabeth Hayden’s ‘Symphony of Ages’ trilogy which follows Rhapsody who is probably one of my favorite fantasy females of all time.
Someone also mentioned Jim Butcher’s ‘Codex Alera’ series. While the books focus mainly on a male character there are some very strong females who are consistently a part of the action and hold their own against their male counterparts.
I would like the add the “The Kingdoms of Throne and Bone” series by Greg Keyes which has a female protagonist.
@Andrea: FWIW, I don’t actually think physical fighting makes a female character “masculine,” though often the character will take flack within the novel for not acting feminine. However, I also appreciate authors who write protagonists (male or female) whose skills are in areas other than fighting, simply because it’s different! Often they’re just as brave and are working for a good cause right alongside the fighters, but their skill set is different.
@Andrea – Really? I think that would just be a reflection of society. I mean the reality is that men and women do act and think differently. It’s scientifically proven.
But think I see your point that it’s derogatory. ‘Cause even if you switch it around and say a man is acting like a woman, it’s still more derogatory toward women either way.
I’m curious to see if Jennifer Roberson, when she resumes writing Cheysuli novels, will incorporate some female leads. She presented both wonderful female and male leads in the first 8 books, but those were written over 20 years ago.
I think that writing reflects what goes on in society, in that most guys don’t really know how to see the world through a woman’s eyes, and we make light of it in in that whole Men-Mars, Women-Venus thing.
I also think you have some publishing bias…somewhere, someone has studies that show the majority of fantasy fiction readers are young, dungeons and dragons-playing males, and that’s the audience they want to cater to. I find that inference to be less true in the current day, as most fellow readers I know are women. Some of them are only into Twilight and Tru Blood, while others are into Robin Hobb and Harry Potter. But I wouldn’t be surprised if marketing departments are using “outdated” studies to cater to male execs.
B.T.
hippogriff.wordpress.com
Well well, I see my off hand comment has stirred some debate. That’s great! I also see in general I’ve been turned against. I see how it is…lol. I still stand by my statement though. I did say specifically 15 years. That means from about mid-nineties on. My evidence for my statements are purely anecdotal. I personally don’t even read a ton of epic fantasy. I am however a habitual book browser. I like to skim the shelves for things that look interesting to me. Over that last decade and half or so I’ve noticed a significant increase in female centric epic fantasy, and overwhelmingly in fantasy in general. If you do not see the vast amount of female centric fantasy on the shelf today then you are simply choosing not to.
The book I’m reading right now, Shadowmarch by Tad Williams has a female lead. I would agree that a female lead character does not necessarily make the book attractive for women, but here is a list of books I’ve read just recently that feature powerful gender role breaking females as the lead or co-lead.
Shadowmarch by Tad Williams
Best Served Cold by Joe Abercrombie
Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson
Inheritance trilogy by NK Jemisin
Shadows of the Apt by Adrian Tchaikovsky
Those are just recently, only epic fantasy, and only the ones I have personally read. Like is said I don;t even read a lot of epic fantasy. I read Urban Fantasy more than anything, and boy talk about girl-centric themes. If I see one more detailed description of sweaty washboard abs I’m gonna hurl. There are tons of great epic fantasy from a female perspective even further back than 15 years.
Le Guin
Zimmer Bradley
Lackey
McCaffrey
Carey
Norton
Hobb
Wurts
I could argue that Rowling’s Harry Potter was very much written with the female readers in mind.
I said 15 years cause I knew that to be a totally safe number. If you honestly think non-stereotypical lead female roles are not at least approaching a 50/50 part of epic fantasy today then you are not paying attention to the industry outside of your own reading habits.
Good call on Abercrombie’s Best Served Cold, Justin. They don’t come much stronger than Monza Murcutto. In fact, I was so into the story in Best Served Cold, I kinda forgot that it was a story where the main character was a woman. Usually, (being the kinda guy I am), when I read a book that’s centered on a female character, that element sticks in my consciousness. I was so into the story I didn’t think about it.
I’m sure some would argue that Monza was a bitch and a whore and they’d be right, but in this case, she really was no different than the most the men in the story.
Ruth, I agree with you that there are many more male protagonists in epic fantasy than female protagonists and that may be due to the usual medieval settings. I disagree, though, with these statements:
I think that most of the authors you’ve mentioned have strong female secondary characters who contribute to the plots in more ways that cooking and ironing. And I’m having trouble coming up with many female characters who are like men without penises.
I’m not saying that there aren’t plenty of stereotyped females characters, but there are plenty of stereotyped male characters, too. (Maybe we should let the guys complain about that!)
I think that the medieval setting (where men traveled and fought) and the fact that mostly men read epic fantasy in the past contribute to the overabundance of male protagonists, but now that more women are reading epic fantasy (probably thanks to those authors who developed strong female characters) we are starting to see more female leads.
Ruth – You forgot your favorite Elizabeth Moon series starring Paksennarion.
Does Karen Miller count as epic fantasy? I haven’t read them, but I seem to remember female lead characters.
hmm, seems like a two issue post here–whether one agrees with the premise and then are there good fantasies w/ female leads/strong secondary characters (this could be an entire week of blog posting I’m thinking).
I think as has been pointed your sample Ruth doesn’t help the argument as most fall into Justin’s “once upon a time . . .” era. I’d say as well there’s some different defining going on as well. I wouldn’t, for instance, argue Martin’s works’ stance (as opposed to the man himself–we should always be careful to separate author and work) toward women based on the presence of rape. I’d say that speaks to the works’ realism rather than how it handles gender. And Covenant’s rape in Donaldson has nothing to do with establishing manliness, I’d argue.
Beyond that, Donaldson’s second trilogy and much of his final one focus on a female lead, and we see a few other strong female characters as well. Leguin’s Earthsea also brings us stronger female characters as it progresses.
On the sex scenes, I’m not sure I buy the premise that female perspective ones get “more” complaints. So far as I know, nobody’s done an actual count, so I’m wary of a blanket statement like that. And I certainly recall complaints about Morgan’s sex scenes, while I don’t remember seeing any complaints about female ones. So from my limited memories I could argue just the opposite–that’s the problem with making a leap from an anecdotal premise to an argument.
Skipping over that specific list, the question has come up over female characters that act “male” not really counting. Which seems an odd sort of complaint to me in the context of arguing for more books that don’t have that. If “acting male” is fighting, swordplay, etc., then it seems there are two problems with that. One is it seems to buy into the gender stereotype just as much as the original complaints. The second is my guess that the reason you don’t find a lot of female characters who do little fighting and question but solve issues via intelligence or diplomacy is the same reason you don’t find a lot of male characters that do the same. Not because that would be men “acting like women,” but because the tropes of the genre and expectations of the readers who pick up the genre expect battles and fights and quests. That isn’t to say there aren’t epic fantasies that don’t employ those tropes, but they’re pretty much by definition the minority.
Covenant’s rape is about establishing power. He doesn’t believe that this world is real, and therefore, he can do anything that he wants to do in it without consequence. He asserts this through the act of rape, which is about power which is traditionally male.
The idea of the tropes of the gender and the readers’ expectations for the genre are the exact idea I’m getting at. Well of course it’s male centered, because we expect it to be, but why do we expect it to be.
Justin, you’re right, I don’t read a lot of epics anymore, which is why I wrote this column. I’ve got some good recommendations for my ever-growing TBR pile from this. But the idea that McCaffrey is a good example of strong female characters makes me wince a little. You’ve got some, yes, but Lessa basically gets slapped around by F’lar, and the whole mating thing makes her booty that is awarded to which ever bronze rider manages to fly her dragon. So she is basically a trophy that gets passed around to the winner – the Stanley Cup of Pern, as it were.
Kate Elliot made an interesting point in J.K. Nemisin’s post in the comments about a male reader having problems with sex written from the female point of view because he didn’t like viewing men in a sexual manner. I agree we don’t have any good data. Maybe that’s a good topic for next week. Best and worst sex scenes in a fantasy novel. I can just imagine the hits we would get from that. :D
Ruth,
I agree with your interpretation of what Covenant is doing, but it’s the depiction of it–not only is it presented as terrible in its process and immediate aftermath, but its horrific repercussions last for years and several books—that makes it hard for me to see that as an argument that the book is somehow anti-women because there’s a rape scene.
Maybe I’m dense but I’m not following the tropes argument. You term the tropes “male-centered,” but I don’t see them as gender-oriented. I didn’t say of course fantasy is male; I said of course fantasy has these tropes. We expect it to have those tropes because it’s a genre, just as we expect a murder, a red herring, and a detective in a mystery. It seems a bit circular or self-fulfilling to me to define the tropes of the genre as “male” and then argue the genre is therefore “male” and the female characters that follow those tropes are just “women acting male”. And again, it seems to stereotype genders (fighting is “male”) which would seem to be what this whole thing is arguing against. Daniel Abraham’s Long Price Quartet (I’d call it one of the best series of the decade) has almost no battles, fighting, quests, etc and employs a lot of social negotiation. Does that make it “female” and thus make the male characters who do those thing “men acting like women”? I’m just trying to follow the argument here.
on Lessa, I absolutely see your point but as with some of the others, I think if you read on you’ll see lots of strong female characters and that the male characters as well sometimes get treated like rewards. Perhaps that’s McC’s own personal awakening or her adaptation to society changing over the decades she wrote the series
On guys not liking sex scenes in fantasy from a female p-o-v because . . . I’m not sure we have any evidence that guys like sex scenes in fantasy from a male point of view. There’s so little of it (as actual sex “scene”) that there certainly isn’t a market argument to be made (i.e. it sells so more people would do it), though that may also be publishers aiming for a PG-13 or R for the wider audience.
best and worst sex scenes–not a bad idea (and as you say, a cheap way to get lots of hits)
Hi folks,
Great post, great discussion. Oddly enough, some wonderful antipodean SFF authors are having a parallel discussion on the subject of writing strong women over on my blog. I see a commenter has already pointed out one post (Glenda’s) to you; there are plenty more. Come and read pieces by Helen Lowe, Kim Falconer, Tim Jones, Nicole Murphy, Glenda Larke and Gillian Polack. More to come next week!
Best,
Mary Victoria
http://maryvictoria.net/?page_id=462
Some other epic fantasies that feature women in a range of central roles include:
Morgan in Marion Zimmer Bradley’s ‘The Mists of Avalon’
Morgaine in CJ Cherryh’s series that starts with Gates of Ivrel
Mara of the Acoma in Janny Wurts & Raymond E Feist’s ‘Empire’ trilogy
Jobber — & all the other great and diverse female characters — in Midori Snyder’s ‘New Moon’ trilogy
Sheera Galernas and Star Hawk in Barbara Hambly’s ‘The Ladies of Mandrigyn;’ Jenny Waynest in ‘Dragonsbane’
Who gets to decide what’s a “realistic” female character?
One of the things that bothers me in a lot of modern fiction (not necessarily just high fantasy) is that warrior women aren’t allowed to be girly too. They can’t like swords and pretty dresses. They get a choice of either/or.
That’s why Tamora Pierce’s work has always been such a huge influence on my own. I hope to provide adult high fantasy with the kind of heroines she’s given YA high fantasy. I’ve yet to read a character like Alanna in anything targeted at adults, and it really makes me wonder sometimes.
@Sam: I do! Obviously. XD
@Sam I believe a summit was held in 1981. John Norman, Jack Chalker, Piers Anthony, and the ghost of Robert Howard got together and wrote it down somewhere.
In all seriousness you make a valid point. I assume women vary as greatly as men do. The swooning maiden and the Alpha Female warrior bitch are two ends of a large spectrum, none which strikes me as completely unrealistic.
My argument is simple, and is direct response to Jemisin’s hypothesis of:
“… epic fantasy itself, as a genre, resists the inclusion of any elements (or authors) it deems “too feminine”.”
I was responding specifically to that statement. Gender bias in modern epic fantasy is nowhere near as prevalent as it once was. If you want to include all of epic fantasy ever written? Then you would might have a valid argument. I got the impression from her post that she was speaking of mostly recent stuff.
As for sex scene perspective. Of course men prefer sex scenes from the male perspective. I wasn’t aware that was controversial. That’s the point of view I usually take, and therefore can identify with it, but that doesn’t mean I think any less of sexy time written from a girls point of view. If the main character is female I would hope she wouldn’t go on about how nice her boobs are….that would be…completely awesome. I kid!!
Because The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever “Establishes manliness through raping a woman” that makes it male-centric? First, the rape scene did not establish Covenant’s maleness. That’s just stupid. Covenant was an utterly broken human, an ‘anti-hero,’ surely you have heard of those. And some of the strongest characters in Donaldson’s writings are women.
At this point I will just disregard you and what you say as a female whiner.
@Rich: Good heavens, please tell me that was irony. Please. You didn’t just fail that hard in a thread on sexism in fantasy, did you?
@Bill, I understand your arguments and I completely agree. We choose to read fantasy which is set in a medieval-like time period, we like stories with fighting and action, and we prefer for our characters to act realistically. As much as I love to see strong female characters using their feminine strengths, I can’t really complain when it’s mostly the men wielding the swords.
@Ruth, I don’t like rape scenes, either, but it’s a fact of life just like murder, war, animal cruelty, and child abuse. If we wiped it out of our books, they’d be more pleasant, but they wouldn’t be real. Why not wipe out all the other distasteful stuff, too, then?
@Sam and @Justin, the thought of Piers Anthony deciding what makes a realistic woman really cracks me up! I can’t read him because his women are so bad!
@Beth, I agree with you that females should be able to kick butt and wear a dress. I think that’s why urban fantasies are so popular with women.
I’ve stopped reading epic fantasy and tend more to urban fantasy these days. I actually see the opposite – a lot of urban fantasy features femal leads. There actually seem to be less books in that gnere with male leads.
Well, I see I touched a nerve here. I’m wondering what I could write on next week to make things quite as fun and exciting.
Thanks for answering my question. Obviously, there’s a lot of recommended female-centered epic fantasy out there that is flying under my radar because of my notions based on older fantasy. I’ll see what I can do about remedying that.
Of course, rape happens. I just wonder what would a female character in the same position of anti-hero as Thomas Covenant do to depict the same level of “brokenness.” Go get herself deliberately knocked up so she could have an abortion?
And there’s a difference between being male centered and being anti-female. I would like to see a world – and you’ve provided a nice list here for me to work on – that mirrors the balance between males and females that I see in my own life. I would like fantasy that shows that there are both males and females capable of making independent decisions that embrace the full range of potential actions available.
Humor doesn’t come across well on the internet. I didn’t mean this post as “a whiner” or a “rant,” but just as an honest question – where’s the female epic fantasies. It sounds like I’ve just managed to miss them, so thanks for helping a sister out. I’ll do some more reading and then come back for round two – Happy Rainbow and Glittery Unicorn Fun Land – in a bit.
I agree with Kat’s point about the medieval settings. To me, there are a lot of authors that just can’t make me buy it when they make women being warriors too common. I mean, in many fantasy stories it just doesn’t jive with the world the story is in. Heck for that matter look at the ratio in our world for women cops or combat soldiers to men. And we live a society that has been motivated to be more accepting of that. Most fantasy worlds don’t have that motivation.
In fact, I find that women characters can be a lot more interesting if they are still strong and figured out how to gain power despite living in male dominated society.
J. V. Jones, Sword of Shadows is a good example of that, the main character is female who is learning how to be a warrior, there is a very rare woman warrior that is respected in the clans, and a very skilled woman assassin, but one of the strongest woman characters, is the widow of a clan chief, who was raped and forced into marring her step-son. Her position as clan chief’s wife is more of a figure-head than having actual power, but she is a brilliant strategist and slowly building-up a following to take over the clan for the good of her people.